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Post by Steller's Jay on Aug 29, 2006 19:45:12 GMT -5
I don't know. Maybe they thought Vader might turn Luke to the dark side if Luke knew Vader was his father.
I think they just wanted Luke to kill him.
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Post by Annie on Aug 29, 2006 20:01:20 GMT -5
Also you have the factor that they didn't believe he could be saved, but Luke did.
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Post by PadmeSkywalker on Aug 29, 2006 21:55:06 GMT -5
I agree with Annie, how could they want and send Luke to kill his own Father? Why did they not think they could do it with planning? Did they just figure that Luke or Leia would be strong in the force like their father?
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Post by Saphira on Aug 29, 2006 22:25:59 GMT -5
I very much so agree. I don't feel comfortable with how it happened either.
Here is a quote from the Revenge of the Sith Novel, written by Patrcia C. Wrede. It's a Scholastic book.
~~~
"Don't make me kill you." Anakin said. The words struck straight to Obi-Wan's heart. Surely something of his friend and student was still left, for him to stay that? But even if there was, no jedi had ever returned from the dark side. Yoda had warned them all, over and over, throughout their training. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Anakin had turned to the dark side, it was to late for him.
~~~
This disgusts me. How wrong they where!!!! They where never taught to find the GOOD that still could be found in them. Obi-Wan thought it was to late for Anakin!
I do think it was terrible for him to leave Anakin, not even try to help him, but he thought it was to late for him..
Yes I agree! Obi-Wan never thought their was a chance to
restore the good in Anakin, thanks again to the training..
Sigh it seems to cruel he left Anakin when he was in pain and needed help..I wonder, an interesting question, what would have happened if Obi-Wan helped Anakin?
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Post by Steller's Jay on Aug 30, 2006 12:15:34 GMT -5
We don't know that they never tried to bring back a dark sider to the light. Perhaps they had tried and failed and decided it was impossible to do that, so they wrote Anakin off.
Even if Obi-Wan wanted to try to turn him back, Anakin both figuratively and literally turned his back on him on Mustafar. I think, when Obi-Wan ignited his lightsaber, he had decided that Anakin was too far gone.
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Post by crystalcat on Aug 30, 2006 17:33:20 GMT -5
Sigh it seems to cruel he left Anakin when he was in pain and needed help..I wonder, an interesting question, what would have happened if Obi-Wan helped Anakin? If someone were to write that it could either way, depending on what they wanted the outcome to be. I think the underlying problem is that Lucas had to get the scene to agree with what he'd already written about it in the OT. It had already been established that Obiwan was the one who put him into the suit in a battle, I think even on Mustafar. Also, that he needed the suit because he'd been burned by lava in the battle. This almost carries with it the idea that Obiwan got him burned and left him that way - half dead, which was why he needed the suit. Stover put in some reason about Obiwan "feeling" Sidious arriving through the Force, but if that was what was meant it wasn't shown, unless in a deleted scene (and if it wasn't there in the first place, it shows that even Stover felt he had to explain why Obiwan would have left his best friend like that). We can try to logic it out - I know there is a whole camp out there who believes that he couldn't kill Anakin due to some Jedi rule similar to the one we have in our society that doesn't allow mercy killings to take place. Out in the middle of nowhere, or during battle or whatnot, what the busybodies don't know won't hurt them, but it isn't done otherwise, or you risk being charged with murder (and the idea was that for a Jedi it wasn't okay even on a battlefield). It's difficult enough to get the busybodies out of your business if you have all the right paperwork filled out to not be resuscitated, or not have any heroic measures taken for your health care. The default is to do anything possible to prolong life - even if the patient is a vegetable with no hope of recovery (and I know what I'm talking about - my mom died of Alzheimer's). However, it's true we weren't shown that "rule" either. I think, ultimately, what we were left with was bad writing. Lucas had a deadline and he couldn't fix everything perfectly. Obiwan had been ordered to kill Anakin; he'd even decided it was necessary (though I don't think he gave up on Anakin until he said, "Then you are truly lost."). Anakin's being horribly burned and practically dead anyway should have given him reason enough to go through with it. But he didn't, because Anakin had to survive for the OT. Ditto he couldn't have helped him because then A) Anakin might have pushed Obiwan into the lava, killing or maiming Obiwan, which didn't happen; or B) Obiwan would have gotten Anakin away and helped him, which also didn't happen. It's circular reasoning, but then that's what had to happen. Almost everything about the PT is circular; it's destiny-driven in the extreme, because the outcome is fixed and can't be changed (well, except by us). Aarrgh. I want to write more, but have to get to a class. Maybe someone will reply while I'm gone. |
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Post by PadmeSkywalker on Aug 30, 2006 19:10:33 GMT -5
I think if Obi-wan helped Anakin, Anakin wouldn't have stopped trying to kill him...
You have to remember, Obi-wan saw Anakin kill the younglings....... he saw Anakin choke the one true love of his life...... he had so many indications that Anakin was almost gone.
I've always said that Anakin was still in there, you can she how distraught he was when he let go of the force grip on Padme.....
Only when he finds out that he kills her does he completely turn to Vader..... then Anakin is dead in my book and Vader lives........... not until Luke shows him unconditional love and hope does he bring Anakin back.
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Post by crystalcat on Aug 30, 2006 20:24:37 GMT -5
You have to remember, Obi-wan saw Anakin kill the younglings....... he saw Anakin choke the one true love of his life...... he had so many indications that Anakin was almost gone. This goes along with Obiwan being trained in the Jedi lore that once a person is turned, they can't be redeemed. But even then I think Obiwan had hope for awhile, or else he wouldn't have kept talking to Anakin. Even after they were fighting, he was still trying to get Anakin to see reason (just as Anakin was trying to get Obiwan to see HIS side of it so he wouldn't have to kill him). I think it could be written so that Obiwan could have saved Anakin (literally and figuratively). Anakin even seems to expect that he (Obiwan) would do this, as (IMO, anyway) he hesitates for just a fraction of a second, waiting, but doesn't wait long enough before screaming "I hate you!" I'm wondering if he'd asked for help instead, if Obiwan would have offered it. I kind of think he would have. And it could have been the "I hate you!" that made Obiwan think he should get away while he could (Anakin doesn't allow for Obiwan's shock; he's too preoccupied with his own). I guess I'll go on record as saying that I don't believe Obiwan deliberately dismembered Anakin, either. I played the sequence in frame-by-frame, and he basically takes a wild swing back-and-forth to do it. But even if Anakin could be turned back, there would be the problem of him being able to live with himself, knowing what he'd done. That wasn't a factor at the end of ROTJ because he died anyway and knew he was dying. So I almost think he would have felt he should die killing Sidious anyway, right away. And he might have been able to kill Sidious that way, not caring if he lived afterwards (and in fact not wanting to live afterwards). |
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Post by Annie on Aug 31, 2006 12:28:49 GMT -5
I'm wondering if he'd asked for help instead, if Obiwan would have offered it. I kind of think he would have. And it could have been the "I hate you!" that made Obiwan think he should get away while he could Actually the original script (and the graphic novel/comic book) DID have Anakin asking for help, and Obi-Wan replied "I love you but I won't help you." Ewan so disliked these lines, and how bad they made Obi-Wan look that he insisted on changing them. He changed the line to "You were my brother, Anakin, I loved you." and they omitted Anakin's cry for help. This suited the movie better, and does make Obi-Wan look slightly less bad for leaving him. I don't know, I'd LIKE to believe that, but I can't. Seems like it would take a pretty good try to carefully cut all three with such split second precision it would be done before his body even hit the ground! Then there is the biggest question of why didn't he just aim to cut off the arm holding the lightsaber, instead of everything but? This is why I can't excuse him. Good point. A lot of the AU fanfic stories have dealt with his memories and guilt in very interesting ways. |
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Post by padme52 on Sept 2, 2006 5:32:29 GMT -5
They thought he was dead and in sense Anakin was.
When Vader was revealed to the galaxy( or rather unleashed upon) by Palpatine ,is probably when they realized he was he was still alive.
Yes it was cruel to send a son to kill his father, both the Jedi and Sith underestimated the overwhelming power of love.
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Post by arie on Sept 10, 2006 16:39:04 GMT -5
Hello. I'm new here, I just joined a few minutes ago! But I decided to look around, and ooh! This caught my eye. Here's how I see it: Obi-Wan reacted when Anakin leapt toward him in defense, he hadn't actually intended on cutting Anakin up like that. As for putting him out of his misery and killing him instead of leaving him to burn... I have a quote! From the official ROTS novelization by Matthew Stover! "Below his feet, Darth Vader burst into flame. 'I hate you,' he screamed. Obi-Wan looked down. It would be a mercy to kill him. He was not feeling merciful. He was feeling calm, and clear, and he knew that to climb down to that black beach would cost him more time than he had. Another Sith Lord approached. In the end, there was only one choice. It was a choice he had made many years before, when he had passed his trials of Jedi Knighthood, and sworn himself to the Jedi forever. In the end, he was still Obi-Wan Kenobi, and he was still a Jedi, and he would not murder a helpless man. He would leave it to the will of the Force." What do you think of that? And... Obi-wan thought him dead right? I mean he never mentions him, just the Chancellor when speaking of the children..... he had no idea that Darth Vader in the suit, etc., survivied right? Its how I saw things, even Yoda, etc., didn't know or did they? Haven't seen the movie in awhile As for thinking Vader died, yes. The answer is yes. He did. They did. Obi-Wan didn't know Vader survived until later. He found out in the cantina on Tatooine... I have a quote for that too, from James Luceno's Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader: "When Obi-Wan lifted his gaze, the intermittenly garbled Holonet was displaying an image of someone outfitted head to toe in black. Human or humanoid- the being's species wasn't mentioned- the masked Imperial had apparently played a role in tracking down and executing the "insurrectionist" Jedi, and enslaving their Wookiee confederates. The burst of static that accompanied the reporter's mention of the figure's identity might have surged through Obi-Wan's brain. Still chilled by the earlier announcement about the Jedi, he was now paralyzed by sudden dread. He couln't have heard what he thought he heard! He whirled to the spaceport worker. 'what did she say? Who is that?' 'Lord Vader,' the man said, all but into his glass of brandy. Obi-Wan shook his head. 'No, that's not possible!' 'You didn't ask if I thought it was possible, sand man. You asked me what she said.' Obi-Wan stood up in a daze, knocking over his table." I would post more, if it's wanted. I recommend both books! I have another thing to say... Obi-Wan feels bad about leaving Anakin to die! He ponders it and wallows in guilt and sadness... Another quote for this, from the same book by James Luceno: "Had he been wrong to let Anakin die there? Could he have been redeemed, as Padme believed to the last? These were questions that plagued him, and pained him more deeply than he would ever have thought possible." That's about it. I look forward to talking more with everyone and it's wonderful to "meet" you! |
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Post by Annie on Sept 10, 2006 17:01:22 GMT -5
I never thought much of Stover's interpretations, he was just guessing just like all of us. Notice he also tells you that Vader's whole face was burned off but we know it wasn't. As a matter of fact, hating Stover's book so much is what drove me to fanfic. I love all the fans' stories and interpretations better, you all have a better feeling for the characters. It is true there are many ways to look at it, like Obi-Wan told Luke, 'a certain point of view.' Even Palps said that to Anakin too. So in their minds, no one was wrong, they always justfied themselves. After seeing ROTS I felt so sorry for Anakin when I found out the reasons he turned. It was also such a tragic misunderstanding- he never found out Padme didn't bring Obi to kill him, Obi and Yoda never knew he only turned to save Padme. This is what makes it all so sad!  |
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Post by padme52 on Sept 10, 2006 18:01:21 GMT -5
I do believe Obi-Wan felt great torment about Anakin for the rest of his life, he loved him and I think it was like watching some one close go bad and there is nothing you can do about it.
Sending Luke to kill Vader was wrong but I guess by then he felt the Anakin he once knew was long gone.
What was the sense in killing Vader if Sidious remained alive.
Its a true tragedy and classic story of a fallen hero.
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Post by Annie on Sept 10, 2006 19:05:17 GMT -5
Somebody once posted on SW.com that they compared Obi Wan fighting Anakin to the boy in Old Yeller having to shoot the dog- he loved him, but he was gone, he wasn't what he once was. But unlike incurable rabies, Anakin could still be redeemed. It took the love of Luke to achieve this, and that was the point of the story I guess.
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Post by PadmeSkywalker on Sept 13, 2006 13:45:35 GMT -5
After seeing ROTS I felt so sorry for Anakin when I found out the reasons he turned. It was also such a tragic misunderstanding- he never found out Padme didn't bring Obi to kill him, Obi and Yoda never knew he only turned to save Padme. This is what makes it all so sad! I too feel such remorse for Anakin/Vader as we've said it makes you look at ANH, ESB and ROTJ differently..... you see Anakin in that suite. As for the comment of Obi-wan and Yoda didn't know the real reason Anakin turned..... Yoda I believe didn't need to know, he just knew the "boy you trained no longer exists, consumed by Vader he is"....... Obi-wan I always thought believed that Anakin turned cause he truly believed the Jedi were evil, he always wanted power.... doesn't Obi-wan tell Luke he was tricked or something? |
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