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Post by crystalcat on Sept 13, 2006 16:28:29 GMT -5
doesn't Obi-wan tell Luke he was tricked or something? I think both Obi-wan and Yoda tell Luke that the emperor figured in Anakin's fall. I think Obi-wan says, "I don't want to loose you to the emperor the way I lost Vader." and I think Yoda is more specific, saying that the emperor is dangerous for this reason. I can't remember the exact quote, but I think Yoda is more cognizant of the fact that the emperor twisted Anakin's mind - that a mind could be twisted without actually seeking out the darkness. The sadness is that I don't think Obi-wan ever comprehended that Anakin didn't deliberately choose the dark side because the Jedi didn't let him become a master or something of the sort. Anakin had enough ambition (which embarrassed Obi-wan whenever it surfaced, as he was supposed to have trained his apprentice out of that) to make it credible from Obi-wan's point of view (knowing nothing else), especially as he'd probably been taught that was the reason people turned to the dark side. |
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Post by crystalcat on Sept 13, 2006 16:37:13 GMT -5
After watching all the movies, I have the impression that Obi-wan truly believed Anakin was unredeemable simply for the fact that the Jedi teachings all said no darksider could ever be redeemed.
From the beginning we see the padawan Obi-wan believe the Jedi Council and (by association) all its teachings to be infallible. Qui-Gon even tries to correct him on his total faith in the system (because Qui-Gon understands that the council is made from fallible beings). When Qui-Gon dies, this even becomes a sticking point between Anakin and Obi-wan which Palpatine exploits to full advantage. Obi-wan's overwhelming faith in the Jedi as an order, and the council as representative of that order, fly in the face of what Anakin - who has come as an outsider - sees as obvious flaws. But I think Obi-wan never sees the flaws in the council (that is, in the people making up the council) for the same reason he never sees the flaws in Anakin - he doesn't want to see them. He wants to see the best in the council - he wants it to actually BE what it is supposed to be in theory, as he wants to see the best in Anakin - what he knows Anakin could become if he chose to apply himself in that direction.
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Post by PadmeSkywalker on Sept 13, 2006 16:53:30 GMT -5
great points Crystal..... I do think Obi says something like that he didn't want to lose Luke as he lost Vader.....
And Obi had such faith, he even begs Qui Gon not to disobey the council again.... etc.,
He loved Anakin and when we love someone, we don't always see their faults, we see what we want.
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Post by padme52 on Sept 13, 2006 19:12:56 GMT -5
I never thought of from this point of view but perhaps that was Obi-wans greatest flaw .
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Post by samantha on Oct 26, 2006 5:22:22 GMT -5
I agree with you on this point, for in many cultures, once you've been lured into the Dark Side, you're assumed to never make it back.
Yet, through Luke, Obi-wan has been proved wrong, that redemption existed for Anakin all along, but that he had to take that decision alone.
That's why Obi-Wan said in ROTS: "I love you, but I won' help you". That's what he meant within this sentence, before to leave.
Kisses,
Sam.
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Post by PadmeSkywalker on Oct 26, 2006 7:32:19 GMT -5
Obi-wan didn't say this? They cut it out? I think..... I do remember recently watching ROTS and seeing Anakin reaching for Obi-wan this must have been where he asked for help..... but to me that didn't fit either.... Anakin was too proud, too consumed to ask for help.
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Post by Annie on Oct 26, 2006 11:41:52 GMT -5
That line was in the novel and original script but not in the movie. Ewan refused to say it and changed it to "You were my brother, I loved you." He felt the other line was too callous and did not work and I agree.
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Post by samantha on Oct 27, 2006 8:58:18 GMT -5
I agree with that, for isn't uncommon, at one or another, to not ask for help when we know we do need it, out of pride. I've done the same error too, a long, long time ago, that's why I understand what you're meaning by that.
That's right, I remember reading it in the making off, yet it's the first one used in the novel I'm being reminded best, for some reasons. It's this one I've found too callous in reverse, very dismissive, as if Obi-Wan was erasing Anakin from his mind in expressing it that way. To me, it was shocking, I guess that's why it didn't work with me...
Kisses,
Sam.
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Post by Astrid on Oct 27, 2006 10:23:54 GMT -5
I don't believe that a person can love a person and not help them, that is not love, no matter what. So the lovED line is better.
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Post by arie on Dec 1, 2006 10:46:04 GMT -5
doesn't Obi-wan tell Luke he was tricked or something? I think both Obi-wan and Yoda tell Luke that the emperor figured in Anakin's fall. I think Obi-wan says, "I don't want to loose you to the emperor the way I lost Vader." and I think Yoda is more specific, saying that the emperor is dangerous for this reason. I can't remember the exact quote, but I think Yoda is more cognizant of the fact that the emperor twisted Anakin's mind - that a mind could be twisted without actually seeking out the darkness. The sadness is that I don't think Obi-wan ever comprehended that Anakin didn't deliberately choose the dark side because the Jedi didn't let him become a master or something of the sort. Anakin had enough ambition (which embarrassed Obi-wan whenever it surfaced, as he was supposed to have trained his apprentice out of that) to make it credible from Obi-wan's point of view (knowing nothing else), especially as he'd probably been taught that was the reason people turned to the dark side. Yeah, I thought about that too! Obi-Wan never knew that Anakin didn't selfishly turn to the Dark Side for reasons like those. And I am proud of Ewan and completely agree about that line. It sounds very callous, and if you ask me, positively un-Jedi-like. |
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Post by samantha on Dec 1, 2006 11:20:28 GMT -5
Of course, therefore explaining his assumed ideas on Anakin and about their relationship. Even nowadays, some people who are obviously trapped into the Dark Side, are being perceived the same by others, ignoring why the later are as they are. Look well, and you'll see what I mean.
Not from my point of view, for to express oneself by using the past is to me positively un-Jedi-like. I've witnessed such effect on others or on I when I've been in Anakin's position, and it felt terrible, Arie. That's why I never express myself by using the past. it's too callous. Not to mention, cruel.
Kisses,
Sam.
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Post by arie on Dec 1, 2006 16:43:34 GMT -5
Sure, I suppose that makes sense, Sam. I never really thought of that.  |
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Post by DarthAnakin on Jan 2, 2007 7:47:38 GMT -5
i think that obiwan shouldn't have left him there, he basically watched him die and he didnt even try to help him. We all know that he had to be stopped but the way obiwan tryed to stop him didn't really work, because trying to save someone doesn't finish with a guy on the groundhis legs and arm cut off...i think obiwan could at least like try save him after cutting this arms and legs off. He should have brought him back to the ship to get medically treated and such.
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Post by padme52 on Mar 1, 2007 21:52:23 GMT -5
No he was not wrong. It was the will of the force.
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