Vader's body

[Annie]

When ROTJ first came out in 1983, there was never any doubt that Vader was being burned inside his suit on that funeral pyre. In the theater, my little nephews used to cry and we'd have to tell them that it was only the suit being burned, but we knew it was Vader's body. The ROTJ novel and graphic novel also said it was his dead body. There was a question of how he could have become a ghost if he didn't disappear, but now it makes sense to know he didn't know the trick like the others did, but maybe was given a pass for being the 'chosen one' and fulfilling the prophecy?

Now some people say it was only the suit that was burned, and that his body disappeared on the Death Star though we don't see it. Some even say Lucas said this (many years after ROTJ) though I have never seen the quote for real. Personally, I can't believe that it was only the suit burning. Here's why:

1. Luke was in a hurry to get off that Death Star before it blew up. Would he have risked his life to drag out an empty suit, and one his father hated, and one that represented an entity he no longer was? (Vader)

2. The suit is shaped like a body. It's not flat like an empty suit.

3. WHY would Luke spend all day building that elaborate funeral pyre, not joining the celebration until late at night, for a SUIT?

4. Why did Luke's face look so moved, and so solemn, and why was the music so sad? Why did it brighten up as the smoke rose from his mask to join the fireworks above? Was that because of a suit?

For all these reasons, it makes absolutely NO SENSE that it was only the suit. But if it's not, then when did he become a ghost? My guess is that it was when the fire started. I don't think the force would want its chosen one to burn a second time. What do you think?

[samantha]

Would he have risked his life to drag out an empty suit, and one his father hated, and one that represented an entity he no longer was? (Vader)

As a son, Luke dragged out what has been his father's body for the last twenty years, the Vader's entity having been died out when Anakin made it back to the Good Side. For Luke, it would have been unconceivable to leave his father's body behind, no matter what all occurred before, especially now. For him, his father didn't deserve any longer to be left behind, in a way or another. To him, the salving of the body had to follow the salving of the Soul, that's what I think took place.

WHY would Luke spend all day building that elaborate funeral pyre, not joining the celebration until late at night, for a SUIT?

The answer can be found at the end of the TPM, and inside the Clone Wars comics, Annie. for the Old Jedi Order, the bodies of the deceased have to be burn on a funeral pyre, for they lived and died by fighting honorably for what they thought was right. Somehow, Luke's been inspired by the Force to give his father this lasting honor, for in the end, Anakin, inspired to do the right thing after many years of suffering and deceit, by saving his son's life, earned it in return. That's why Luke's not joining the celebration until late at night, he was paying his father the respects he was due as a great warrior and a father.

[Why did Luke's face look so moved, and so solemn, and why was the music so sad? Why did it brighten up as the smoke rose from his mask to join the fireworks above?

Therefore, that's why Luke was so solemn and moved, Annie. The music brighten as the smoke rose from the mask to join the fireworks to symbolize that Anakin's Spirit has finally made one into the Force, like any worthy Jedi Knight. For from my point of view, it's at this moment Anakin became a ghost, not at the moment the fire started.

I don't think the force would want its chosen one to burn a second time.

Well, according to my own experience and all I can guess is, Anakin's been first burnt by the fire of anger and hate on Mustafar, before to receive the purifying fire from his son's hands at his death to symbolizes his return to the Good Side on Endor, therefore allowing him to find the way to become a Spirit, just like Obi-Wan and Yoda before him.

Besides, into the Bible, the Chosen one to be burnt is the Prophet Elijah. For in Ancient Mesopotamia, the bodies of the deceased were burnt to get their souls sent back to the Creator. And in India, so goes the same at Veranasi since centuries. A door of the karma closes down to reopen another...

Kisses,

Sam.

[crystalcat]

I can buy that it was just the suit - since I can come up with a rationale I'd use if I were writing the novelization (I believe Lucas says that about the suit on the "making of" special that's packaged with the set of 3 OT DVDs, but I could be wrong. However, Lucas has been known to - frequently - rewrite his own history as he goes along ).

annie said:

When ROTJ first came out in 1983, there was never any doubt that Vader was being burned inside his suit on that funeral pyre.

No, we didn't know any different, because we hadn't seen the PT. It seemed he was inside it because the whole "funeral pyre" is a common theme or occurance for dead heroes (as Samantha describes). So we would think that. And no doubt Lucas meant it that way at the time, even if he swears otherwise now.

1. Luke was in a hurry to get off that Death Star before it blew up. Would he have risked his life to drag out an empty suit, and one his father hated, and one that represented an entity he no longer was? (Vader)

Was Anakin actually dead when Luke dragged him onto the ship? We see him slump over and his eyes close, but this isn't a positive indicator of death, only unconsciousness. It's more poignant from a storytelling point of view to have Anakin die in Luke's arms (as Shmi died in his). If he was still alive, then of course Luke would drag him onto the ship - even without the mask, he might have made it to a medical facility in time and even if the chances were greater than winning the lottery that he'd succeed, he still had to try. If, OTOH, Luke knew for a fact Anakin was dead (felt him pass), why bother bringing the suit and remains with him at all - it would only slow him down.

2. The suit is shaped like a body. It's not flat like an empty suit.

I originally thought Vader was the leader of the clones and had black body armor similar to theirs. It looked like there was enough hardness of the armored parts that it could have held its shape without anything being in it (particularly as many parts of Vader were not organic - and not necessarily just the arms and legs).

3. WHY would Luke spend all day building that elaborate funeral pyre, not joining the celebration until late at night, for a SUIT?

To burn the symbol of evil. In this instance it wasn't a hero's funeral, but a purge. Although it seems it could have been both: A purge of the symbol of evil his father had become and a symbolic funeral for a hero - an all-in-one combination fitting for Anakin's dying act that brought him back from the dark side.

4. Why did Luke's face look so moved, and so solemn, and why was the music so sad? Why did it brighten up as the smoke rose from his mask to join the fireworks above? Was that because of a suit?

See reason #3 above.

Of course, all of these are just my rationalization of what COULD have happened. Some people may just prefer it to be the body in there and Anakin transmuted into ghost form through special divine grace. And that's fine too.

[Annie]

I really, really, really can't accept that's a suit burning. Back in 1983 it was his body, and if that has changed recently, that doesn't change what is in the movie. I know novels are not canon, but they are made from original script drafts, and this passage from the ROTJ novelization perfectly describes what we see in the movie:

Luke stood in a forest clearing before a great pile of logs and branches. Lying still and robed atop the pile was the lifeless body of Darth Vader. Luke set a torch to the kindling.

As the flames enveloped the corpse, smoke rose from the vents of the mask, almost like a black spirit, finally freed. Luke stared with intense sorrow at the conflagration. Silently, he said his last goodbye. He alone had believed in the small speck of humanity remaining in his father. That redemption rose, now, with these flames, into the night.

Luke followed the blazing embers as they sailed to the sky. They mixed there, in his vision, with the fireworks the rebel fighters were setting off in victory celebration.

If he's not in the suit, it destroys that poignant moment of the smoke rising into the sky mixing with the fireworks, and in the new versions, flying through the galaxy setting it free. I completely refuse to accept that Luke would go to all that trouble to build a pyre for a suit which was Vader's prison and an evil symbol. If he only wanted to destroy the image of the suit, he could have tossed it in a normal bonfire.

I don't think the suit is solid. If you look at the "NNOOOO!" scene, and the parts where he's bowing down to Palps, you can see the upper arms and legs are like pleather and bend when he bends. It's like a soft padding on the stomach above the waist, and the chest around the flashing lights. This would have collapsed with no one in it. If the suit were empty, you'd have the half fake arms and legs in it and the rest flat. And most of all, if he were meant to disappear when he died, I'm sure this would have been shown in the movie as it was for Obi and Yoda.

You know I'd LIKE to believe he disappeared and didn't burn, especially since he'd burned at Mustafar, but all the evidence from the movie and books adds up to the body being burned. If it changed later, it's the same as Greedo shooting first.

This has gotten on my nerves SO bad!

[padme]

Ok - now I still don't know what Luke burned BUT.... I know most of can agree that try as George Lucas did - there were things that still didn't fit together from the Pre-tril to Post tril. I can't think of what they were right now - but I do remember thinking 'well, that wasn't tied into very well'.

Ok, so having said that - I think it wasn't tied into very well. But as for Ani being burned again - well, they burned all the jedi that die - so I don't think that it matters to the force - its a way to release their spirits to the force.

I do remember hearing a interview with hayden and george and I believe that george says that the suit was empty - like I said - it wasn't tied in very well. He did a great job though. that was alot to make fit.

I bet if eps 4-6 were redone now - there would be some changes made. (Anyways, that's what we're for, right?)!!!!!

[Annie]

I am very sure Vader was in the suit in 1983. If he changed it later, it's like making Greedo shoot first. Maybe someday he'll CGI him disappearing, and flatten out the suit but until then I'm going with the original concept. When my little nephews used to cry when Vader burned we used to tell them it was only the suit so they'd feel better, but we didn't really think that. Personally, that's what I think Lucas is doing now, but he did burn him back then.


I do hope he adds Hayden to the unmasking scene. That would be awesome.

Speaking of not tied on too tight, what about that Leia remembering her mother thing? Originally he had planned to have the nameless/faceless wife live a few years, but after creating Padme and the PT he realized that wouldn't work and she had to be killed off. Still, it leaves a confusing plot hole people go on about. I just write it off to a writer changing his mind, we all do it sometimes!