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Post by christyc21 on Sept 14, 2006 13:50:01 GMT -5
Ok..my biggest peeve is that the Jedi council couldn't even see what was in front of them the whole time...that the very guy they helped...was the Baddest of all...i mean..he was Right there...manipulating his way through the system...and they let him.Palpatine..is it so hard to believe that he is not what he seems..there where a lot of signs that palpatine was bad...does anyone agree with me..or am I alone in this...
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Post by Annie on Sept 14, 2006 14:45:32 GMT -5
No you are not alone! I totally agree! I can't believe how stupid and blind they were not to figure it out, I mean, force or no force, it was as stupid as not seeing Superman is the same guy as Clark Kent! I also hate the way they treated Anakin. If they had been more understanding and less hardcore he would have felt he could talk to them and not gone to Palps. He didn't even feel he could confide in Obi-Wan, that was sad.
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Post by arie on Sept 14, 2006 15:08:17 GMT -5
OMG I totally agree, Annie! I mean, they were way too hard on Anakin and he didn't feel like he could really just TALK to them, not even Obi-Wan, and that is very sad.
They were all very blind, you would think that at LEAST Yoda would sense something was up. I mean, they started to... but by that time it was too late!
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Post by Annie on Sept 14, 2006 15:22:39 GMT -5
Thank you! Oh it's SO good to have people who see this and understand! I really think this was a main point of the movies, to show their mistakes and how they tragically contributed to Anakin's fall.
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Post by christyc21 on Sept 14, 2006 15:28:15 GMT -5
Yes, finally...someone who feels like i do...It mad me so very frustrated that they couldn't see what was in front of them the whole time..Yoda is The most well...wise and powerful i suppose..and it dissappointed me so bad..when they were in Palps office and he said, "The dark side clouds everything" or something along those lines..well duh it clouds it..its Right in front of you...although...i would have to give palps credit for 1 thing and 1 thing only..w/o his suggestion to bring Anakin and Obi-wan to watch over Padme..i doubt Anakin would have got to see her again...and..yes, if they weren't so hard on Anakin, he might have actually trusted him...i mean..if he was their Chosen One..then why didn't they believe him, when he said his mom was in trouble..why couldn't they let him go help her..i believe that was a Major factor in him not trusting them...starting with when he was just 9..they didn't want to train him..said he was too old, or too dangerous..that's not very reasurring to a 9 year old who was taken away from his home planet, his mother..and the only home he has every had..to try and see if he could accomplish his dream of being a Jedi..
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Post by crystalcat on Sept 14, 2006 16:21:58 GMT -5
The Council was - in theory - supposed to be very wise, yes. But the reason for this was it was supposed to be composed of Jedi masters - those who had gotten their rank and position on the council because they had learned how best to listen to the will of the Force.
Unfortunately, over the thousand years (or however long it was) since the council was first set up, it had become less and less like this ideal, until circumstances reached an imbalance to the point that the Sith could once again operate.
In the PT, we see the council in its last few years, in its worst possible incarnation. To make matters worse, at least half of the council was killed on Genosis, and the remaining Jedi seemed to think having an entire set of council members was necessary even if they had to promote people into positions they weren't necessarily yet qualified to fill.
What was wrong with the council by that point? Yoda points it out in AOTC - they had grown "arrogant." And at the end of ROTS, Sidious also points out - correctly - that Yoda is one of the arrogant ones. Just about the only council member who was not arrogant was Obi-Wan, but even he is handicapped by his belief that the council itself was "wise" as it was supposed to be.
What did all this mean?
It meant that the council at large (composed mostly of the arrogant) had faith in themselves - in their own ability to detect evil. This is not the same as faith in the Force.
Obiwan, though he was selfless as an individual, had too much faith in the council - which was not the same as faith in the Force.
Qui-Gon is the only Jedi we see who truly follows the will of the Force, yet he is not permitted to be on the council, due to political differences (he doesn't always agree with their decisions, meaning the Force leads him in a different path. The implication is that the council does not follow the will of the Force in these instances).
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Post by crystalcat on Sept 14, 2006 16:32:46 GMT -5
if he was their Chosen One..then why didn't they believe him, when he said his mom was in trouble..why couldn't they let him go help her..i believe that was a Major factor in him not trusting them... I never had the impression that Anakin asked the council for permission to go see his mother. I think he discussed his dreams with Obi-Wan, who didn't believe there was anything to them other than Anakin being homesick or having nameless fears that as a Jedi, he needed to overcome. But I don't think Obi-Wan was acting heartlessly here - he was just acting on his own experience, which was quite limited. For instance, we are never given any reason to believe that Obi-Wan, for instance, ever had any visions. Nor are we shown that anyone else except Yoda ever has them. So Obi-Wan has no basis for comprehending that his padawan would have this ability. In addition, Obi-Wan was so tied to following the will of the council that it's possible he felt that if anything were wrong, the council would let them know (or that if Anakin was having real visions, they'd let him know). I suspect he felt absolutely terrible when he found out what happened to Shmi. But, yes, I believe this was probably a major factor in Anakin not confiding his problems in Obi-Wan later. |
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Post by crystalcat on Sept 14, 2006 16:40:04 GMT -5
starting with when he was just 9..they didn't want to train him..said he was too old, or too dangerous..that's not very reasurring to a 9 year old who was taken away from his home planet, his mother..and the only home he has every had..to try and see if he could accomplish his dream of being a Jedi.. Well, if Anakin had been from a normal home, it wouldn't have been as much of a big deal (assuming he was someone regular and not the Chosen One). Qui-Gon could just have taken him back to his parents and told them he was sorry. End of story. But in Anakin's case, he'd been bought out of slavery and had nowhere to go except back to being a slave. However, in fairness, we do not know for a fact that the council was aware of this. We don't hear Qui-Gon mention it. In fact, we do not even know that Obi-Wan ever knew about it! Qui-Gon didn't expect to die; it's quite possible he intended to go back with some money to buy Shmi her freedom after the business with the war on Naboo was over. And Anakin obviously didn't care for people knowing he was a slave ("I'm a person and my name is Anakin.") So it may simply have never come up. |
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Post by crystalcat on Sept 14, 2006 16:47:42 GMT -5
I mean, force or no force, it was as stupid as not seeing Superman is the same guy as Clark Kent! Well, in fairness, they never saw Sidious like the audience did. If they had, I'm sure at least some of them would have gotten suspicious about how much he resembled Palps (and possibly the Nemoidians can be forgiven for not noticing if we assume that all humans look alike to them anyway). So they really did need the Force to tell, IMO. But since they were supposed to have the Force as an extra sense, there was absolutely no excuse for not noticing. They were all just too complacent and sure that NO Sith Lord could EVER get past THEM ... ... and, of course, too busy being holier-than-thou to bother noticing. |
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Post by christyc21 on Sept 14, 2006 17:46:27 GMT -5
I see what you mean crystalcat...i do agree with you...still..i guess...idk...i mean...it just really got on my nerves that they thought of themselves enough to believe in their ability that they became so, arrogant, to not see the truth...and to lose the trust of their Chosen One...if they had been a bit more lenient with some of their rules, such as not having attachments..then i do believe that Anakin might not have been so hesitant to tell them...and would trust them more..instead of going to Palps...and yes, i do realize that the council was made up of beings who had learned to listen to the will of the force..but, times have changed...shouldn't they change with it...Qui-gon seemed to be leaning towards this..possibly even Dooku...after all Dooku did teach Qui-Gon...and no..i don't believe that Obi-Wan was being heartless either...just following what he believed..what he was taught...but I do think he should trust in Anakin, so if Anakin felt like Shmi was in trouble...then he should have been allowed to go..i mean Qui-Gon told Anakin in TPM to "Feel don't think, use your instincts"...but yes, i mean..you would have to be heartless, and Obi-Wan is not heartless, to not feel terrible about that..
hhmm..and i see what you mean about Anakin being taken away...but as for them not knowing he was a slave..i do believe most people knew that Tatooine was controlled by the Hutts, and that there was slavery...or at least the Republic didn't have any "presence" there so to speak...even if they didn't...still, by saying that they couldn't train him(his eyes narrowed in TPM when they said that) and being nearby to Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon when Obi-Wan was talking about him...This is a quote from TPM book
"He had been so sure that he would be a Jedi...now what would he do? Tagging along after Qui-Gon would only remind him of everything he couldn't have. At least I didn't fail the test, he thought. It's only that I'm too old. But it was small comfort. And on top of everything, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were arguing--about him."
that isn't very reassuring...especially at that age...
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Post by Annie on Sept 14, 2006 18:16:49 GMT -5
I mean, force or no force, it was as stupid as not seeing Superman is the same guy as Clark Kent! Well, in fairness, they never saw Sidious like the audience did. If they had, I'm sure at least some of them would have gotten suspicious about how much he resembled Palps (and possibly the Nemoidians can be forgiven for not noticing if we assume that all humans look alike to them anyway). So they really did need the Force to tell, IMO. But since they were supposed to have the Force as an extra sense, there was absolutely no excuse for not noticing. They were all just too complacent and sure that NO Sith Lord could EVER get past THEM ... ... and, of course, too busy being holier-than-thou to bother noticing. Even without seeing Sidious in his hood or hearing his voice, if they were so 'wise' and all knowing in the force it's still pretty pathetic they didn't put the pieces together. I can't stand it when Windu speaks to the Chancellor like he's a good guy, totally innocent, not sensing a thing, even a tremor? Even Obi Wan could tell something was terribly wrong and told Anakin. When they said the dark side surrounded the chancellor, I am just at a loss to believe that it never even entered their minds he was the Sith Lord! And yes, they were too holier than thou to notice. It kind of reminds me of a boring story. My Mom worked in a store, and stuff kept coming up mysteriously missing, money was missing, false return slips with nothing to back them up kept making money vanish. One older woman who had been working for the store for thirty years was fired and jailed because some of it was proven to come from her register! Everyone was shocked and my Mom couldn't believe it, she knew her too well. After she was gone, it kept happening. Everyone was suspicious and being watched. One young girl who had just started working there said one day she thought it was the head of security, he was the one who could cover up and control everything, and the last person anyone would suspect. Of course, she was either laughed at, or told how terrible she was for even thinking such a thing about him. Well, you guessed it, within a year it all came out, and she was right, it was the head of security! Everyone, especially the manager, felt so bad. But they didn't have the force. It's bad enough that the Senate didn't suspect anything, but it was worse for the Jedi, who were supposed to rule the force sensitivity. Which brings me to another thing, the 'clouded by the dark side' excuse. I can't buy this, and if it were true, wouldn't that mean that the dark side was stronger, or better? This also brings up the issue that they did stick to their 'narrow minded dogmatic view' and not even explore the dark side, even to learn from it, to understand it. This was a major fatal flaw IMO! |
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Post by crystalcat on Sept 14, 2006 18:23:27 GMT -5
...and yes, i do realize that the council was made up of beings who had learned to listen to the will of the force..but Hmm. I guess I should have been more clear, but I get so wound up in posting so much at one time ... I never meant they listened to the will of the Force. I was trying to point out that they SHOULD have, that it was their JOB to listen to it, but that they were too arrogant and DID NOT. They were far too impressed with the fact that they were Jedi (look at us, we're special, we can hear the Force and you can't ...) |
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Post by crystalcat on Sept 14, 2006 18:34:32 GMT -5
Qui-gon seemed to be leaning towards this..possibly even Dooku...after all Dooku did teach Qui-Gon I think Dooku was snared by the same tactics that worked on Anakin - it was apparently a well-known fact that he was disillusioned with the Jedi. They even called him an "idealist" - which makes me think they were aware that they were far from perfect, but willing to live with the imperfection. However, this makes it doubly arrogant of them to decide that if anything were out of order, they'd just "know." (which they didn't). but I do think he should trust in Anakin, so if Anakin felt like Shmi was in trouble...then he should have been allowed to go..i mean Qui-Gon told Anakin in TPM to "Feel don't think, use your instincts" The problem is that they were in a parent-child relationship (essentially), with Obi-Wan, not Anakin, in the parent role. For someone as rule-oriented as Obi-Wan to do what the child told him to do and not the other way around just wasn't something he could swallow. And I think this over-adherence to the rules blinded Obi-Wan to the will of the Force at times. Qui-Gon even tells him to be mindful of it, when Obi-Wan has just extolled the virtues of being appointed to council membership, like that should be Qui-Gon's highest goal. and i see what you mean about Anakin being taken away...but as for them not knowing he was a slave..i do believe most people knew that Tatooine was controlled by the Hutts, and that there was slavery... True, but that's not the same as assuming that the person you are meeting came freshly from slavery, especially a child, and especially if the child didn't really act browbeaten. I agree with you, incidentally, about them discussing Anakin's shortfalls, including ones he has no control over, like his age, right in front of him like he's not there was outrageously rude and a huge mistake on their part, given that they grudgingly agreed to train him later. How much trust could anyone of any age give to a group who treated them like that? |
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Post by crystalcat on Sept 14, 2006 18:47:29 GMT -5
Even without seeing Sidious in his hood or hearing his voice, if they were so 'wise' and all knowing in the force it's still pretty pathetic they didn't put the pieces together. It was pathetic; I wasn't disagreeing with you, just unsure of what you meant exactly with the Superman comparison. When they said the dark side surrounded the chancellor, I am just at a loss to believe that it never even entered their minds he was the Sith Lord! And yes, they were too holier than thou to notice. It never entered their minds because they were too holier-than-thou. If they acknowledged that he was a Sith lord, then they'd have had to admit to letting him run loose for years and years undetected. Which brings me to another thing, the 'clouded by the dark side' excuse. I can't buy this, and if it were true, wouldn't that mean that the dark side was stronger, or better? Logically it should mean that if it were the case. I took it to mean that the Jedi Council were verging on the darkness, in the same way Anakin was. I can look at the entire PT and see that for every fault assigned to Anakin that was supposed to lead him to the dark side (fear, anger, pride), the Jedi were equally as guilty. In fact, I suspect that Anakin, as the Chosen One, might never have had to even face the Sith Lord on his own, if the Jedi had paid attention. I think he could have been meant as a mirror for them to hold up and see themselves, and if they had been able to do that, then they could have taken care of the Sith Lord without him having to do any actual fighting. If this is the case, it also takes care of the problem of the Chosen One being a child when the Sith reappear. This also brings up the issue that they did stick to their 'narrow minded dogmatic view' and not even explore the dark side, even to learn from it, to understand it. This was a major fatal flaw IMO! I think we were meant to see that it was a flaw, since Yoda corrects this when he teaches Luke. |
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Post by Annie on Sept 14, 2006 19:41:59 GMT -5
I can look at the entire PT and see that for every fault assigned to Anakin that was supposed to lead him to the dark side (fear, anger, pride), the Jedi were equally as guilty. Oh, good, good observation, I never thought of it that way but very, very true and an excellent point! Another good point I hadn't thought of! That's right, he did, and that also proves he knew he had failed before and was making up for it. I really see the movies as telling us and showing us how the Jedi were wrong, just as much as Anakin was wrong, and how it was all part of the epic tragedy. I don't see how anyone could say they did nothing wrong and it was all Anakin's fault. Of course they were flawed, and Lucas shows us this, especially in the PT. |
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