The EU - your opinions please

[crystalcat]

Please say what you liked and what you didn't like about the EU.

Mostly this is just for those things that had lasting effects, not just things that didn't matter after the book (whichever one it was) was finished.

For instance, did you like it that Han & Leia had three children, the first two twins? That their third child was named Anakin and was unusually strong with the Force?

Did you like it that Luke married Mara Jade - and did you like Mara Jade's backstory about her history with Palpatine? (Oh, my God, Luke, did you know where that had been?)

Do you like how the New Jedi Order turned out? (and if you did, please say what you like about it, since I've never read any of those books).

And any other stuff you can think of.

For me, what I don't like the MOST is that there seems to be a sort of competition among the EU writers to see which one of them can make our heros suffer the most and/or die.

[Annie]

It's going to be very hard to say what I do like about the EU. I do like that Han and Leia had twins and a force strong child named Anakin. I do not like the things the EU did with this family.

I like Shadows of the Empire and its portrayal of a privately sensitive Vader alone in his empty mansion with no joy, dreaming of finding his son, and desperately trying to heal himself.

I can't say I have enjoyed any other books, I haven't read many, most of the time just flipping through them at a store turns me off and disinterests me. Some of the comics look okay but there are always things about them I don't like as well. The biggest problem I have with the EU is that I don't like what is done to the characters. This is why I like the fanfic I've read so much better, because the writers are fans with a feel for the characters, and they make things happen I want to see happen, not that stuff in the EU.

I do not care for Mara Jade, I don't see her as someone Luke would be attracted to, I can't accept the chemistry or the circumstances. I don't mind him having a wife, just not her.

Two more reasons I dislike the EU:

I don't like how almost every book introduces large numbers of creatures or other (IMO) unecessary and boring characters that will more or less take over the story. Take for example Dark Lord. I picked up this book at the store, and noticed that the entire first section of about 10 chapters was introducing a bunch of extras I had no interest in and didn't like. Much of the rest of the book had them as central figures. It seems too many EU writers seem to be only writing their own Sci Fi stories with their own characters and adding SW characters and/or locations here and there to make it SW but it's not SW enough for me. I want the main characters to be the lead with few if any invented creatures.

It's silly how the EU, even those 'Definitive Guides' and 'encylopedias' contradict each other. How many different ways did Vader lose his right hand, not counting Dooku? Let's see, did Luke cut it off in "Splinter of the Mind's Eye", did he lose it to Palps as a punishment for his failure at Yavin, as Zahn has Mara Jade telling us, or was it another battle? Where did Vader go after the Death Star was destroyed? Some stories say he crashed on a moon of Yavin. Others tell you he had hyperspace on his TIE and went directly home to Coruscant. I have also heard he went to the nearest Star Destroyer, or closest planet with an Imperial outpost. He couldn't do them all, could he? (I think the person who said he crashed didn't notice that at the very end, he pulls it up, stops spinning and flies straight, he was, after all, the best star pilot in the galaxy!)

So the inconsistencies get me too, and even worse than contradicting each other is contradicting canon, like Stover saying Vader's face was 'burned away' and he had no lips, tongue, throat, and his eyes were scorched pale white and blind, when we see from ROTS his features are still intact as the mask goes on! He also claims his voice was destroyed, yet we hear him grunting as he climbs the lava hill as Palps arrives, screaming on the operating table, and of course talking to Luke in ROTJ with his mask off (more proof his face wasn't destroyed in the fire!)

Stover also has Padme fearing Palps and being suspicious of him. This completely contradicts the story in the movie! If she felt that way, why was she so appalled when Anakin said he wanted to overthrow him? Why was she stunned when Obi Wan told her he was the Sith Lord? These are examples of how a writer, who is really no different than the rest of us, puts his own often incorrect fill ins into a story and a lot of fans buy into it as a real part of Lucas's story when it's not, by Lucas's own admission, no book or comic is canon, only the movies.

Another big goof in a novelization is the part in ROTJ where Leia claims to remember her REAL mother- yes this is distinguished from her adoptive mother- for several years and recalled running and hiding in a trunk with her. Of course this was written long before the PT, and at that time Padme as a character didn't exist, but it's still an example of how writers put their own wrong fillers in and they can mislead and confuse fans. This bothers me so much I can't read it.

But with fanfic, of course, it's mostly AU and just for fun and what might have been, so I do love it!

Sigh, I could rant quite awhile on this, I'll probably add more later.

[Steller's Jay]

(Annie, I love your sig, with words from George Harrison's "Something". Beautiful.)

I'm afraid I can't contribute much here, since I've read very little of the EU. I did read Shadows of the Empire and thoroughly enjoyed it. I decided last year to read the movie novelizations and did like TPM, where it showed more of little Anakin's using the Force without knowing he was. I don't remember much of the AOTC novelization (what does that say?), but I suppose it was all right.

I didn't really like the ROTS novelization by Stover, but I didn't hate it. I read that he was given an early script and went from there, so that may be why there are things in the book vastly different from the movie. Once thing I REALLY didn't like was that ridiculous 'dragon' he put into Anakin's heart, the dragon that kept Anakin in fear much of the time. What, he can't just write emotions, and describe what they are doing to someone?

I also decided last year to try to read books that take place around the prequels first, then tackle some of the myriads of other books that are out there. Right now, I'm too busy getting my house in order and having fun! Also writing some, but you wouldn't know it, would you?

[PadmeSkywalker]

I haven't read much of the EU..... I like Leia and Han winding up together, having three children, I don't like that their son Anakin dies..... the Chewbacca dies..... I mean why do they have to kill everyone? Why especially the name Anakin means tradegy? Luke and Mara was ok, their son Ben was a nice throwback to OBI-WAN (Ben Kenobi)

All the new characters is boring also, I know they have to add places, storylines, but I don't care to know that much of any new characters.... just me...

[Annie]

doubleagent said:

(Annie, I love your sig, with words from George Harrison's "Something". Beautiful.)

Thanks, I didn't make it but I like it!

I read that he was given an early script and went from there, so that may be why there are things in the book vastly different from the movie. Once thing I REALLY didn't like was that ridiculous 'dragon' he put into Anakin's heart, the dragon that kept Anakin in fear much of the time. What, he can't just write emotions, and describe what they are doing to someone?

People on SW.com have used that to justify him, but the only thing I see that was influenced by the first script is the part where it discusses Obi-Wan leaving Anakin to die. That was changed in the movie, because Ewan refused to say the line "I love you but I won't help you." (I agree with him!) The thing about the face was nothing to do with the script since his face was NEVER meant to be destroyed, since he has it in ROTJ and everyone has known that since 1983 so that was the dumbest thing of all. The part about Padme and Palps was his speculation filler and it went against the story. His idea about Anakin sneaking over to see Padme and sneaking back was good, but wouldn't any of us have guessed that must be how it was? Surely they didn't know he slept with her so what else could it be? And I agree with you on the dragon thing too, that was terrible! Yes, why can't he just write emotions, like all of your fanfic writers do so well?

[Annie]

One more thing I don't like is the stories where Palps has been cloned or comes back. If Palps isn't dead, the whole saga was for nothing, the prophecy was meaningless, Anakin/Vader's sacrifice pointless. Lucas has said that Palps did die in ROTJ and that is canon. Of course if Palps comes back in AU that's different, since Anakin can still be around to fight, I just don't like it if he comes back after Vader died saving Luke from him.

Speaking of coming back, Lucas has also distanced himself from the Boba Fett survives the sarlac pit stories. He said by his rules Boba died on Tatooine. I even saw an interview once where he said he was so annoyed by Fett being brought back that he had Maul cut in two just to keep the EU from bringing him back! Which brings us to the age old question, why does he allow this stuff if he doesn't like it, and says it doesn't count?

(he did say he liked Shadows of the Empire!)

[crystalcat]

Storylines which are about new characters and places are not unique to Star Wars novels. I know Star Trek has this problem too, and I suspect most "official fanfiction" suffers from it too. There are too many writers who are only fans of the universe - and who want too much to otherwise create their own characters, unfortunately for the fans who buy the books. Fans want to read about the canon characters or their derivatives (no problem with giving Han & Leia kids; they were about to get married in canon anyway).

But the hugest problem with Star Wars EU is that TPTB have ordained that all the stories must agree with each other. This is a nice idea in theory (sort of like communism, with much the same results), but in practice it has led to a violent competition to kill off the other person's characters, and then, once one of them started in killing off a canon character (Chewie), they all had to jump on board and be the "first" to kill off some other canon characters before the next writer beat them to it.

It should have been more like what Star Trek has - a few general guidelines about what can and can't be done with the characters - Lucas should have spelled out from the beginning a brief, one-sentence history of what happened to everyone after the saga ended - that Han & Leia did get married, how many kids they had, whether their kids lived to old age, whether all the characters he created did so also, etc. It wouldn't have taken much to do that (not just for Han & Leia, but for Luke, too, and the rest of the main characters); they are, after all, Lucas's characters to start with so he should have known them rather well. Then the authors would have to have abided by THOSE guidelines instead of by first-come-first-served guidelines, like "oops, sorry, Joe Blow submitted his manuscript yesterday and yours doesn't agree with his so no thanks."

Incidentally, Star Trek has an amateur writers competition every year and one of the RULES of entry (along with "no Mary Sue stories") is "no stories that kill off a major character." So how hard would it have been to simply invoke that as a rule for Star Wars to begin with?

[Annie]

But the hugest problem with Star Wars EU is that TPTB have ordained that all the stories must agree with each other. This is a nice idea in theory (sort of like communism, with much the same results), but in practice it has led to a violent competition to kill off the other person's characters, and then, once one of them started in killing off a canon character (Chewie), they all had to jump on board and be the "first" to kill off some other canon characters before the next writer beat them to it.

Oh, I didn't know that, that's awful! I heard Stover wanted to be the one to kill off Luke, no way, please! I don't understand why they have to match up, they haven't always in the past (like the ways Vader lost his hand) and Lucas has said before none of it counts anyway so it might as well be just for fun like our stories.(not to say the EU is fun, it's not for me!)

I also think it's sad when fans get so into believing a certain book they can't accept anything else, even though it's not canon anyway. I know a woman who is so into the 'little padawan' books that she can't see any flaw in the Jedi order, though the movies clearly show this, and I know a guy who cannot accept the Jedi working with clones because he was so into a series of books that claimed they were 'one with nature' and would never cohort with clones. (I think the original premise was that the Jedi fought against the clones, not with them, this is the impression I got from ANH) So the EU can taint peoples' views of the canon movies, which defeats the purpose of canon, and separating the 2 universes, which is what Lucas wants.

Incidentally, Star Trek has an amateur writers competition every year and one of the RULES of entry (along with "no Mary Sue stories") is "no stories that kill off a major character." So how hard would it have been to simply invoke that as a rule for Star Wars to begin with?

Very good idea, they should have!

[crystalcat]

annie said:

I know a woman who is so into the 'little padawan' books that she can't see any flaw in the Jedi order, though the movies clearly show this

This doesn't happen exclusively from the EU - it can happen from people's interpretation of events in the actual movies. People see what they want to see. And since the concept of "the Force" is basically religious (actually I think Lucas tried to dissociate it from religion with his midichlorians, but it was too late), disagreements can run into religious disagreements. Sometimes people will so identify the Star Wars religion with their own religion that any criticism of it (SW or the Jedi) becomes in their mind a criticism of their religion. I've inadvertently run into this problem with a couple of people in the past - so to hopefully avoid running into it in the future - let me say here and now -- any criticism I direct towards the Jedi, their order and/or religious practice is criticism of the fictional concepts only. I am not making any substitutions in my own mind. I do not have some hidden agenda by which I "really mean" something mean and nasty about ANYONE or their beliefs. Good heavens, I am about as blunt as Anakin or Leia. I was behind the barn door when subtlety was handed out - so this can be expanded to mean if anyone thinks I am "really" trying to say something other than what I actually say, YOU'RE IMAGINING IT.

Okay, end of soapbox lecture.

annie said:

and I know a guy who cannot accept the Jedi working with clones because he was so into a series of books that claimed they were 'one with nature' and would never cohort with clones. (I think the original premise was that the Jedi fought against the clones, not with them, this is the impression I got from ANH)

Oh, please do not get me started on how the movies (movies in general) screw up the whole concept of cloning. Star Wars was a fantasy anyway, so it has that excuse, but if the guy above is so anti-clone that he believes that, you're right, he didn't even pay attention to the movies. But then, I guess he has the right to believe the EU over the movies if he so chooses.

Actually the worst cloning movie I ever saw was the very last Star Trek movie, and my beef is that they should have KNOWN better. A clone isn't a copy of a person, including their whole personality!!! But that movie would have you believe that it was!

[Annie]

crystalcat said:

This doesn't happen exclusively from the EU - it can happen from people's interpretation of events in the actual movies. People see what they want to see. And since the concept of "the Force" is basically religious (actually I think Lucas tried to dissociate it from religion with his midichlorians, but it was too late), disagreements can run into religious disagreements. Sometimes people will so identify the Star Wars religion with their own religion that any criticism of it (SW or the Jedi) becomes in their mind a criticism of their religion. I've inadvertently run into this problem with a couple of people in the past - so to hopefully avoid running into it in the future - let me say here and now -- any criticism I direct towards the Jedi, their order and/or religious practice is criticism of the fictional concepts only. I am not making any substitutions in my own mind. I do not have some hidden agenda by which I "really mean" something mean and nasty about ANYONE or their beliefs. Good heavens, I am about as blunt as Anakin or Leia. I was behind the barn door when subtlety was handed out - so this can be expanded to mean if anyone thinks I am "really" trying to say something other than what I actually say, YOU'RE IMAGINING IT.

Okay, end of soapbox lecture.

I know exactly what you mean. I think that's got a lot to do with it, making it personal when it shouldn't be. The imagined slights and personal offense a person can take over a movie that isn't even real is unbelieveable.

Sad to say this isn't limited to SW either. I have known people on a music board who hated me and picked on me for saying I disliked an album by the band. They claimed that because the album meant so much to them and was so much a part of who they were that I had somehow wounded their inner child and hurt them deeply personally by saying I didn't like the songs! The ironic thing is, they had also said they didn't like the album I liked, but they said they 'had a right to their opinion' uh, and I guess I don't?! What's the difference? The double standard was ridiculous! The mods were no help, they agreed with the other album people and allowed me to be abused, thinking it was funny. When I came back as a sock trying to start over fresh, they told everyone it was me and I got it again. I finally left. It wasn't worth it, but it was so stupid!


Even worse are the ones on the history board who, when you continue to tell them that Anna Anderson wasn't really Anastasia, and DNA tests prove it, they get extremely mean and personally insulting, even going so far as to send vicious and intentionally cruel and even threatening PMs and emails, and, if they know your name and location, a few people have been prank called! I mean, how is this important to their lives at all? I know guys who got DNA tests proving they were the father of kids they didn't want to pay for for 18 years, but though that directly affected their lives they never acted up and screamed of conspiracies and switched samples like these Anna Anderson people do. It's so bizarre!

The internet is full of loonies, some of them scare me. My brother has even had some very strange problems with people on a tropical fish board of all things! You just never know what's going to set somebody off. I do wonder, though, how many of these zealots would have the guts to act the same way to your face as they do behind a screen!

Oh, please do not get me started on how the movies (movies in general) screw up the whole concept of cloning. Star Wars was a fantasy anyway, so it has that excuse, but if the guy above is so anti-clone that he believes that, you're right, he didn't even pay attention to the movies. But then, I guess he has the right to believe the EU over the movies if he so chooses.

I was very disappointed at the lame way the clones were used in SW. I expected much better from Lucas.

As for the guy, he claims to disregard the whole PT and is boycotting Lucas because of this. Oh well! It's his loss, really.

Actually the worst cloning movie I ever saw was the very last Star Trek movie, and my beef is that they should have KNOWN better. A clone isn't a copy of a person, including their whole personality!!! But that movie would have you believe that it was!

That's right! How annoying it is to see stuff like that!

[arie]

Although I agree with a lot of stuff being said about Stover... and the EU, I must say that:
1.) I did enjoy some things about Stover's book(s). I mean, even if he did screw some stuff up, it IS Star Wars... so I did enjoy it. There is, however, some Star Wars authors that I consider quite good. One of my favorites would be James Luceno. His portrayal in his books "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader" and "Labyrinth of Evil" inspired me greatly. Of course, you all are entitled to your own opinions as I am entitled to mine.
2.) I don't like stories where Palpatine comes back... within reason. One of my stories involves Palpatine coming back, but I believe, that in this case, Vader (Anakin)'s sacrifice wasn't for nothing. It makes sense, I think, when reading it, and it's hard to explain... It's more of an Anakin/Leia thing... Anakin showing Leia himself without the Dark Side. And if Anakin's there to fight, then it's acceptable... as someone said... I don't remember who. It's definitely AU.
3.) Many things about the EU frustrate me. Anakin Solo- I'm not a fan, but I don't like how he died. Chewbacca- WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE WORLD? CHEWBACCA! YOU CAN'T KILL HIM! In all seriousness, I hate his death. I guess I sort of enjoy the fact that Leia and Han have twins like Anakin and Padme did.
4.) About the "dragon" in Anakin's heart. I didn't like that Stover didn't seem capable of writing the true emotion that definitely needed to be expressed during this part of the story- but I have to say, when I take the dragon concept and twist it around (for fanfic purposes) to symbolize the Dark Side tempting a conflicted person... I like it.
5.) I never noticed how many inconsistencies Stover created! I knew some existed, but wow, have you guys opened my eyes.
6.) Leia knowing her mother... I love reading stories (AU, of course) that attempt to explain this, but I'm not sure how I really feel about this being an inconsistency. I like that its there, I think. It makes you wonder, you know?
7.) Another thing about the EU- I DO like the conflict Leia feels regarding Vader.
8.) I would perhaps like to read some EU books, as I've hardly read any EU material. I would surely love to check it out to see what else I find, but I think maybe my hesistance to do so is caused by the fact that I dislike a lot of what I know so far.
9.) I think Padme's shock about Palpatine being the Sith is much better than being afraid of him- but I do kind of like the idea of a little suspicion, and wariness. I mean, she's a Senator, and a lot of the Senate was becoming a little suspicious of him- she's a smart lady, she must've thought something. And yet, I love her complete and utter shock as well, being that Palpatine was her friend and was her confidante when she was Queen. Just my opinion.

Geesh, I talk too much. But I think I address about everything I wanted to say about what's being discussed so far.

[samantha]

As far I'm concerned, the one book I really loved set in the EU was Twilight Planet, for it was the first one I ever read and appealed to me.

But now, since Anakin's past has been revealed, I'm taking my distances with it, and got rather very picky with the novels I wish to read.

In fact, I got all three novels (The Approaching Storm, Jedi Trial and Labynrith of Evil), connected to him. And I've done the same with the Clone Wars Comics.

It's true than recently, most secondary characters are taking over in the books, and are quite a turn off about to choose one.

However, the Dragon inside Anakin's heart got my attention, simply for in Western Europe, the Dragon symbolized Evil, and betrayed his inner ambivalency, so to speak. He wanted to perform Goodness, but was flirting with Darkness due to his emotions gone unleashed for being confronted to his deepest fear (loss of loved ones). Besides, don't we say "Be an angry Dragon" or "Be smoking flames" when we're subject to lose our temper? For that what I got from this modest sentence at the time I read it.

Another author got the imagery of anger right, it's James Luceno in Labyrinth of Evil, at the beginning, where he says Anakin needs his emotions to refuel his anger, for he feels more powerful as angrier he gets. And what's better combustible than emotions gone unleashed, isn't it?

Concerning Mara Jade, I've no objection. I've grown quite fond of this woman, I must say. She's stayed where Callista left. She's outspoken, daredevilish at some points, and very attached to her husband. Her dark past, somewhat akind to Anakin's has something to do with it, I guess.

And I loved the blink of the eye to Obi-wan through the birth of their child, Ben.

I'm just voicing my opinion, of course.

Kisses,

Sam.

[arie]

I absolutely loved Labyrinth of Evil! That book is very very good!

[samantha]

You bet, Arie!

For as I flipped through it before to start my reading, I've been quite astonished by how James Luceno brought to life so well the inner turmoil inside Anakin's heart, and as well how he brought out the fact that no matter the distances between two Souls loving deeply each other, their thoughts always join, a theme I'm very attached to, bu that so many seem to ignore. But not he, visibly, for I've never seen it anywhere else.

Kisses,

Sam.

[Annie]

Hey have I ever told you how much I hate the EU and how stories written by fans are so much better? I know I have, I was just thinking about it again today.

Though I have always loved Star Wars, my love and interest was limited to the movies (that does include toys and collectibles of characters). This is because I could never get into the 'other universe.' When I found out Lucas didn't recognize it and said it didn't count, I was happy because I didn't want it to. But I can see how some guys who have really gotten deeply into it were mad when they found out it didn't count. You can see from what Lucas did in the prequels that nothing the EU had made up over the years about the family and the details (except that Vader was hurt in lava, though I think that was his own idea anyway) mattered to him when he wrote what HE wanted his saga to be. He had a completely different view of Owen and Beru and how Anakin lost his arm and how he became Vader. He said there was his universe, and theirs, the EU. BUT why does he continue to allow it to go on and collect money from it if it doesn't mean anything? I'd rather have the stories more closely scrutinized by him. Some of that stuff is just ridiculous. I have never bee a rabid enough fan to eat that stuff up in my desperation, because I didn't like it. I never thought I'd ever like anything but the movies until I found fanfic!

There is too much mixing of the two 'universes' causing confusion, mistakes, double or triple answers to questions, and some stuff is just plain laughable. These "Guide to the Universe" books need to stick to ONLY CANON or ONLY EU and not mix them, because it starts to make no sense when you do. Even the most recent issues still say Vader lost his right hand to Sidious for his failure at Yavin